LED Lights in caravan - replace fluoros

A couple of months ago my son-in-law Mark bought a range of LED lights off eBay as replacements and additional lights for his Jayco Swan camper. He bought flat 36-LED arrays, LED strips where the LED’s are encapsulated in flexible clear plastic, and LED’s in the form of a ‘globe’ or light bulb, as direct replacement for the bayonet-base existing incandescent bulbs in the interior roof lights. The latter style were not that successful as some of the light is directed back to the light fitting, but the flat arrays and flexible strip were very effective. It made me think about my caravan lighting, where I have two circular fluorescent lights inside on the ceiling, and two square ‘2D’ fluoros outside. LED lights are far more energy efficient than incandescent bulbs or fluoros, and as all my lighting is taken off batteries, I was keen to minimize current draw.

Mark sourced his LED lights from a Hong Kong eBay company, and so I bought two flat 36 LED arrays as a trial. Once I tried them, I immediately ordered another eight panels, six to use and a couple of spares. I expect that at the price we are paying, the quality will not be 100% and some of the LED’s may die prematurely, so figured some spare panels would be a wise investment, although the odd dead LED in an array should not be too much of a problem.

The eBay site we used is: http://shop.ebay.com.au/i.html?LH_BIN=1&_ipg=&_ssn=winterlamlam&_trksid=p3911.c0.m301  .. and my communication with them has been quick and easy. When I wanted the additional 8 panels, they set up a unique eBay item that only I could bid on so that I could get the 8 panels in one shipment.
I suggest that if you decide to use this site, check through the listings carefully as identical items may be listed at different prices and with different postage rates. For example, the items I bought were $2.97 each, with $5.00 postage to Australia, but the identical items were listed for up to $4, and postage could be over $8. Note: these are ‘Buy it Now’ prices, as is the link - you can search his whole site if you wish.

Mark used a single 36 LED panel to replace each incandescent bulb in his roof lights, and the light output is much brighter and whiter. I used two 36 LED panels in each light, replacing 21 Watt (square 2D) or 22 Watt (circular) fluoros, and again the light is brighter and whiter. The flat arrays are available in a range of sizes, shapes, and number of LED’s per array, and you could use more panels with less LED’s if you like. The flat arrays come with double-sided adhesive on the back of the panel, and are very easy to install – see the photos below.

Regarding current consumption, the following were my figures:
22W circular fluoro light, 1.2 Amps (somewhat lower than the expected 1.83A)
21W square ‘2D’ fluoro light, 0.63 Amps (much lower than the expected 1.75A, and I cannot explain that as my wiring is certainly heavy enough)
Each 36 LED array, 0.23 Amps, replacing the fluoros has seen a lower current with improved lighting.

A note about my exterior ‘2D’ lights… I found that there was a lot of water inside one of the lights. It appeared that the thin sealing strip was not effective, and also there is no sealing around the 4 screws that hold the plastic lens cover on, so water could enter there also. I made a new gasket using 3mm adhesive-backed foam from Clark Rubber, and also placed an additional 3mm foam ‘washer’ under the screw holes. Hopefully that will reduce the water problem. Note that these LED arrays are marketed as for ‘indoor use only’, so if you use them for an exterior light you need to ensure the lights are well sealed, or expect some issues.

 

LED panels in Outside Light, replaced 21W '2D' fluoro

 

There would be numerous other applications for these LED lights.

 

Cheers,
glids-37

Indeed, thank you glids-37, excellent information.
I also have done quite a bit with lighting, including LED's in my old Winnebago.  Over my dinette I have 4 fixtures, with 6 LED's in each.  I gutted the original electronics and made precision regulators to supply power, they were originally run by 3 AAA batteries.  I am very happy with them, they draw slightly over 1 watt each, much less than my (gulp!) 36 watt  dual 1141 bulb incandescent fixture.
The reason for the 4X fixture configuration was it was early on in LED technology and I used the 15 degree spread LED's, they are quite pointed, do not spread like incandescents.  Spread out amongst the fixtures as they are I get excellent coverage.
And this would be the reason for this long explanation.  I am wondering just how the light spreads on those flat panels you have.  There is no question of the power vs. output advantages of these little things.  But they are so very pointed with their coverage it can be quite complex designing with them.  And the info from the suppliers is so vague, "low power consumption, long life".
I would like to replace my main overhead light with the same ones you have, but am concerned about seeing into my refrigerator (no internal light), etc. which is it's main function now
I am also curious as to the current draw of .23A, as these things usually have a max draw of .025A/ea, but everyone runs them at least 20% below that as they burn up rather quickly if you max them out (or so they say).  But at 36 * .018 (at least that's what mine run at) I get  .648A, almost triple what you say they are doing.  Please understand, I am not questioning your measuring, just curious if you have any clue what that's about.  I have had quite a few failures, maybe I should run them lower.  Until now, I have attributed that to the very cheap price I got them for on Ebay.
BTW, I'm from the states, CA to be exact.  But I joined up here because I have been lurking for awhile and find you folks from the land of Oz have some excellent information.  We have something in common.  Although it throws me a little when you talk about how hot it is "up North",  I'm in the Mojave Desert, it gets 40C ++ here often (why, this very minute!), and with the info I've gotten here, I now have to turn down the temp on my fridge so my milk doesn't freeze   And no "T" rating on my fridge either .  And this was today, got to 103F.
Thank you again for your post.

Hi sputnik,

Oh :)

Photo A - Flouro on

Photo B - LED on

Might be a bit hard now you have converted though.

Pretty impressive.

I've got four of these arrays on their way.

So I'll have a play. :)

Well, I don't mean to be pesky.  But I feel compelled to share what I have learned.
It's why I more or less took a long vacation from this led issue, something so simple and yet it can be complex.  It always turns into a big time sink for me.  I really wish to replace all of my lights with leds.  I'm totally solar, can't beat them for energy saving.  I have all flourescents in the kitchen, they work well and are comparable as far as energy saving.  But they don't like to be cycled on & off much, a problem the leds do not share.  I have helped this a little by installing an extra switch and an incandescent "dome light" in the fixture over the sink.  Fit right inside with the flourescent tube.  Best of both worlds, when I just wish to quickly use the sink in the evening I simply use the incandescent, to do dishes, etc. I use the flourescent.  It's those quick on/offs they really hate.
Today I went to the candlepower.com forum, a really great place for this kind of info, wish I would have paid attention to them sooner.  They have found the same issues with the cheap Chinese leds that I have.  They simply will not survive running anywhere near the maximum current ratings of 20-25ma.  However, they suggest running them well under 10ma and just using more.  Hmm.  That's exactly what the fellows on Ebay that are selling the panels such as you bought are doing, running at 6ma/ea.  Sure, it takes 2-3 times as many for the same light output, but they are 5-10 times cheaper than quality leds.  Makes sense to me.
Even the Ebay seller that I contacted told me in one of the (numerous!) emails he sent "You should check out the 5050 (type of led) models that we sell.  The flux type is brighter, but you may find that it starts dimming in 1-2 years."
So I don't think any of this applies to you glids-37, as the panels you purchased are running the leds way under rating and just using more to achieve a certain brightness level.  But if there is anyone else out there making their own lights they may stumble across this.  I know this info would have saved me some time.  I have made many replacements in my lights, often within a few days of having previously done it.  Now I know that for the fixed 6 led lights that I need as bright as they now are, I must bite the bullet and buy leds that are 6 times as expensive.  As for retrofitting my other incandescents, heck, I'll still try the overkill routine with the cheap Ebay leds, I can pack alot of them in there cheap.
Incidentally, occasionally China makes a good led.  I have had to replace them in all 4 of my lights many times, but I have 2 lights now that have gone for quite a while with no problems.  Since my leds run in groups of 3 (common practice for 12 volt) I never try to figure out if it's only 1 of the 3 failing (like old Christmas lites), I simply replace all 3.  So it's a crap shoot everytime, are all 3 of these good?  Time will tell.  Usually not.
Back when I started doing this, those Ebay sellers weren't around, it was make them myself or do without.  Times have changed-rapidly
Please forgive me for beating on this dead horse, hope I haven't bored you all, but hoping to share my experience clearly to 'whom it may concern'.

Originally posted by sputnik I got real fancy with mine, running two series strings of 3 leds, each string with it's own constant current regulator.  No matter the voltage (within reason) they get the same current.  It's a very good way to do it, but, down & dirty,

Nah - the series resistor is the down and dirty way.

Originally posted by Meggs Hi Sputnik welcome to our forum.

Thank you very much.  I have high regards for the practical ideas of the inhabitants of OZ.

Originally posted by Meggs On your comment that sometimes China makes a good LED I believe all the LED's are mad in China or India and end up being rebranded for sale here. The same exists with Solar panels with almost all the manufacturer's being in China or India but the problem comes in sorting the wheat from the chaff as to what factory supplies the big solar paned distributors here who end up marking up 200% for a brand name.

Much of what I know currently I have gotten from the candlepowerforums.com site, great place.  Real LED geeks there, doing things like 2 year burn-in tests.
The 2 highest quality LEDs in the 5mm category that they prefer are the Cree C503C ($.54 US at digikey) and the Nichia (about $1 US and impossible to get in the states, but common in Europe).  High brightness, about 20,000 hr. lifespan.  Cree is in the states, North Carolina and Nichia is the company that brought the 1st white lighting LEDs to market, they are in Japan.  Of course, in today's international world, they could very well be manufacturing in China, almost everybody is.
Also, they claim that not all Chinese LEDs are created equal, they DO come from different factories.  One they seem to hold in high regard is a seller currently by the name of hitechledworld.  From various clues they have surmised that this seller is an outlet for Prolight Opto Technology Corp., another high quality supplier.  I believe they are in Japan also.
As you say, the wheat from the chaff.  My 1st buy were those 100/$10 packs.  They are junk.  I'm currently going to try some of those from hitechledworld, 8mm, 75,000mcd (sure ), 40 degree spread.  Their prices are 2 to 3 times higher than the CHEAPEST ebay sellers, but it's still pretty cheap compared with Cree & Nichia.

Originally posted by PeterD Nah - the series resistor is the down and dirty way.

PeterD, I'm with you .  Spoken like a true practical Australian.

Originally posted by PeterD As you are running a current regulator to feed your string of 3 LEDs, all you need to do is to short out one at a time. When you short the bum one the other 2 will light up.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  But I've got this big bag of LEDs...
Besides that, by doing that you would overcurrent them, even for a fraction of a second, may cause irreversible damage, depending on how much, because the constant current regulator is going to put out the same current irregardless.  How much is too much?  I dunno, but the candlepowerforum guys overcurrent them like that on purpose to see what they can take, they often dim and never come back after.  It only takes about 25 milliseconds to blow out a power transistor due to short, for example.  Even a quick draw specialist can't move that fast.  Anyhow, they were so cheap, it wasn't worth it to me to waste time, until I started considering that I was resetting the crap shoot with every replacement.  They are tested easily enough with an external resistor to 12v and a ground clip, that's what I will do in the future.
Great to see others out there in the LED trenches